Topic: What about other religions?

wink, wink, honey!

Topic: What about other religions?

ratboy wrote:
>People these days just want to feel “different”...booze,pot,other drugs…religion…the opiate of the masses some have said…feeling different…

Haha yeah and I love how people discredit other people for doing the same thing :wink:

Topic: What about other religions?

People these days just want to feel “different”...booze,pot,other drugs…religion…the opiate of the masses some have said…feeling different…

Topic: What about other religions?

But don’t worry, I shake it off like a duck dog shakes off water. I get maudlin about this crap sometimes, right now isn’t one of those times.
But, back on topic. Does anyone think that drugs or alcohol are kinda like idols, i.e. idolatry, to addicts and drunkards? Could it be a religious experience for them, in a way? The 12 step programs (which do work for some) don’t talk about it that way, and they are vaguely christian based. Some people use their faith in god to help them stop, I’ve seen it happen. I mean, alcohol and drugs have been around for awhile. Also, some hallucinogenics have been used in some religions. I don’t think there is any addiction problem there, though. So, any comment?

Topic: What about other religions?

Finally able to reply a little more… Aran, again, thank you. You are absolutely right, I witnessed self destruction, no evidence needed. lol
This type of behavior would not just destabilize society, it would kill it. I had a double whammy with the AIDS crisis. Many of my gay friends died (and it was a death sentence back then) plus many of my friends used (and abused) drugs. There was much more danger in the drugs than in unprotected sex. Overdoses, AIDS, hepatitis, deadly staph infections, poisonings plus more. Could I have stopped them? Helped them? Maybe, maybe not, and surprisingly, I don’t feel very guilty about that. Yes, some wanted help and I helped them if I could do so. I was not in much of a position to “help” during many of those years. I can’t tell people what to do. If I do, they go do it anyway, and then they just hide it after that. This is still a major problem in this country. The drugs are out there (so is the unprotected sex). If people want them, it’s just like going to the store for a quart of milk. And don’t even get me started on abuse of prescription drugs. But alcohol can be just as bad. I swear that my friends that were alcoholics were even worse off than the others and that’s legal! When I was much younger, most of my friends drank. If they were to pass on, alcohol was many times involved. In my teens, most young people that died lost their lives in car accidents. It was very common. As I got older, there were many other reasons…

I didn’t mean to go off-topic this much, sorry guys. But we have been hanging out here lately, so hope it’s OK. Thanks again for listening. Ain’t psychology wunnerful?

Topic: What about other religions?

Oh… My… Gawd… Long post comming up just now…

“The largest level that it exists at is a population level (a “pack” or “tribe” if you will). Thus if morality grew out of human instinct alone, it should never have risen beyond the tribe level; we should still be small warring tribes, caring nothing for others, with no concept of “universal human rights.”“

Aran, I don’t see why instinct couldn’t transcend the tribal level. Classic argument, but undeniable; all it would require is time and luck.

“We are certainly much more than instinct now. We are capable of self-aware, abstract, rational thought.”

Instinct isn’t rational?

“Holding math and science to be the only kind knowledge or fact, then, is a simple fallacy; that atheistic tenetic is demonstrably in error.”

That’s true… But taking what is unproven as fact is also in error. We can make guesses, but ID is one of the wackier guesses out there, me thinks. Might be true, but chances look low.

“They merely take it for granted, because they can’t do otherwise.”

Duh.

“That is further evidence that they can’t account for the existence of thought, because the universe, by these assumptions, should lack thought utterly in any of its members or creatures.”

How did you come to that conclusion?

“It tells us that our very ability to think and create abstraction and physicality indicates the pre-existence of these things. If anything is, God must be.”

How did you come to that conclusion?

Topic: What about other religions?

Aran, rb, thank you for your kind words.

Topic: What about other religions?

It isn’t the job of non-believers to prove that your god or any others do not exist…Is that the rub?...That atheists won’t acknowledge your particular god…?

Topic: What about other religions?

God exists,because He must exist?...erm…no…we can move on…monotheism was once” the new thing” over polytheism…yes…time to move on…

Topic: What about other religions?

gawd,kookoo…you are just awesome…hugs…%>)

Topic: What about other religions?

Hey, i went nuts, did stupid shit and wound up here, i.e. I never returned. I did grow up, though. It was while I was out being crazy that I realized my atheism. I like my life the way it is. Slow and easy. I’ve been relatively upfront about my life here in these forums. There are certain things I probably wouldn’t admit to here in “relative anonymity”, as Satol said. Take what I have said and use your imagination. You won’t even be close (lol). I’m a happy person. I love life. I don’t need to worry or even care about whether god exists, doesn’t exist, no “order of nature” or whatever. I’m me. I exist here and now. I’m enjoying it all and I am at the prime of my life. Why should any of this philosophical stuff matter? If the order of nature, or something else makes you see a loving god, that god helps you through your life, he’s important to you, hey! enjoy yourself! This is something that’s important to you. You are my friends, I see that this is important to you. I don’t feel exactly that way, but I will defend your faith and your beliefs to my fullest. Just don’t ask me to get anthromorphic or anthropromorphical or whatever the heck you were talking about because I’m not gonna do it. I don’t really care about the details or the philosophy, I know what I know and I do what I do and I also do whatever I want. I am the most hedonistic person that you will probably ever meet in your lives. I am extremely lucky to have lived this long. Many, many of my friends are dead. I’m not kidding, I’ve had to make many new ones in the past twenty years. I count my worth in my friends (and family), I love them and know how much they love me. This is what is important to me. When I am gone, I know that I will be remembered and loved by the people who know me. That is what I will take with me and it completely satisfies me now and will then. This is suddenly very difficult to talk about, I’m sorry about my babbling (again!). Thank you for listening, dear friends.

Topic: What about other religions?

Gaaahhh. It’s not different paths, my friend…how do I explain this? Have you ever picked up a chick in a bar who turned out to be a psycho and whipped out a knife, intending to tear out your throat? Married a high school sweetheart who turned out out be a lesbian? Lived as a crank- snorting, beer- swilling psycho biker? And after all that crazy shit, raised a stepdaughter to become a highly competent, successful corporate- climber?

And, eventually, returned through study and introspection to a life that is ruled by Deity?

A path, Bro. Tread it, if you have the balls. And don’t come whining to me if you can’t hack.

Topic: What about other religions?

“Hate me now, but love me later, Bro- I’m now going to pull the age card. You’re in your teens, or so I remember from our touchy- feely getting to know each other thread.”

I don’t hate you. I just disagree with you.

“Been there, done that. I’ve done shit that, even with the relative anonymity of the ‘net, I would never reveal here.”

Well, then we’re obviously following completely different paths. No shit do-age here.

“Go nuts. Do stupid shit. But, eventually, return.”

Lol. That sounds like very, very bad advice. The “go nuts, do stupid shit” part, not the other bit.

Topic: What about other religions?

Well, good for you if you want to believe that. I, for one, am beginning to think otherwise quite strongly. The words are making much more sense to me on the atheistic side of the fence just now.

Hate me now, but love me later, Bro- I’m now going to pull the age card. You’re in your teens, or so I remember from our touchy- feely getting to know each other thread.

Been there, done that. I’ve done shit that, even with the relative anonymity of the ‘net, I would never reveal here. I came out of about 20 years of shit- crazy insanity that actually, somehow, pointed me towards the belief that there is an inherent beauty in life, given to us by our Creator, and that there is an inherent Law, which we are expected to follow.
Don’t necessarily follow it, now, you’ve got lessons to learn. Go nuts. Do stupid shit. But, eventually, return.

Topic: What about other religions?

“Human instinct is human instinct, but it’s put in us by G-d.”

Well, good for you if you want to believe that. I, for one, am beginning to think otherwise quite strongly. The words are making much more sense to me on the atheistic side of the fence just now.

Topic: What about other religions?

The more I hear about this god fellow, the more he sounds like a personafication of human instinct. (Yeah, I anthro’d him. It doesn’t matter, the point is the same reguardless of how it is said.)

No, dude, understand- you completely fuck up an understanding of G-d when you do that. Human instinct is human instinct, but it’s put in us by G-d. Anthro’ing G-d completely screws up an understanding of His nature.

Topic: What about other religions?

“Why do we believe in those principles of behavior universally, and not just for our “tribe” or “pack?””

These instincts exist for the sake of the survival of humanity as a whole. The tribe mentality improves the chances of human survival greatly.

Try as you might, it’s human nature to think differently of those who speak the same language as you as opposed to those who speak a different language. Of friends as opposed to strangers.

This does not mean that we are incapable of thinking of those who are outside of our group(s), just that we think of them in a different manner.

“God is not needed to know His law because it was already there, predating us, etched in us. Order and existence and natural laws are there because of something.”

The more I hear about this god fellow, the more he sounds like a personafication of human instinct. (Yeah, I anthro’d him. It doesn’t matter, the point is the same reguardless of how it is said.)

“How do you explain the human intellect in the context of a supposedly self-existent, self-ordered, unthinking universe?”

Define “thought” and I’ll give you that.

“It tells us that our very ability to think and create abstraction and physicality indicates the pre-existence of these things.”

Now, how the heck did you come to that conclusion?

Topic: What about other religions?

Yep. Dug it.
Well. The Tetragrammaton is such a badass concept, you pretty much have to lay out the four letters. While rife with meaning, the Word conceals more than it really reveals, doesn’t it?

Topic: What about other religions?

I AM WHO AM.

=IHVH. Bravo, Bro- well said.

Topic: What about other religions?

no one needs a belief in a supernatural “father figure”…Yes…I know he/she/it is anthropomorphized…We are not made in God’s image…he is made in ours…quite a natural developement…

But you did it again, Broham. The problem is, when you throw up that old- man- on- a- throne- father- figure thing, you completely block off your own ability to think of G-d in abstract terms. Which is the only way you can really do it, and have it make sense. I’m serious about the “Ordo ab Chao” thing, BTW. That’s really at the heart of it.

Topic: What about other religions?

Sometimes I think this site is chaos out of order…The basics of human behaviour are really a “no-brainer”...most sane folk wish to be treated with dignity,respect…our cherished PLUR…no one needs a belief in a supernatural “father figure”...Yes…I know he/she/it is anthropomorphized…We are not made in God’s image…he is made in ours…quite a natural developement…

Topic: What about other religions?

“Of course it does. The question is, where did those personal moral beliefs come from?”

I tend to think that morals are basic animalistic instincts that have evolved amoung humans via time and a lack of competition for survival.

“Although they are legislated in most societies, does human society really need to vote on the wrongness of stealing, lying, cheating, etc., or they an inherent part of our human psychological makeup?”

They are a part of the human psychological makeup. They are instincts. (Often times, they are instincts gone awry.)

Stealing: we have a built in drive not to take from those humans that are our responsibility, our group, our “pack,” and from those who cannot afford to lose anything. (Unless, of course, we cannot afford not to steal.) We also have a built in drive not to get stolen from. both have grown absurd in certain cases wherin there is no longer competition to survive.

Lying: the moral rules reguarding honesty seem to have stemmed from the drive to comunicate with other humans in order to warn them of ocoming danger, sources of food, etc.

Topic: What about other religions?

I think it begins with personal moral beliefs…doing unto others as you would have them do unto you…not to steal,lie,cheat,etc

Of course it does. The question is, where did those personal moral beliefs come from?

Seriously. Although they are legislated in most societies, does human society really need to vote on the wrongness of stealing, lying, cheating, etc., or they an inherent part of our human psychological makeup? If we legislated that it was OK to throw small children in front of an oncoming train, it would be law, but would it be right? My point is that basic morality is an inherent law within us, IMO, and is no different from the laws that rule nature.

Topic: What about other religions?

Mostly just the part about order proving the existance of a creator. The rest of what you said about natural order makes sense to me.

OK. At the risk of annoying Koo again:

Stop anthropomorphizing G-d. It’s a mistake that both fundies and atheists make, for some reason I simply can’t fathom. Perhaps it’s the atheist’s reaction to how fundies perceive G-d, I dunno. RatBoy’s “g-d- creature” thing is an example of this.

RatBoy- reality works as it works because it has to work that way. That’s “design.” (No, not in that co- opted “intelligent design” way.) Ordo ab Chao.

Topic: What about other religions?

Oh,yes…this thread has so much in it that I forgot to comment on morality…personal and group…I think it begins with personal moral beliefs…doing unto others as you would have them do unto you…not to steal,lie,cheat,etc….Things which the religious and non-religious can generally agree make society run…

I doubt that kookoo has coveted his neighbors wife…