Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Satolkin @ Sat, 26 Jan 2008 02:51:37 -0000

Satolkin — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 02:51:37 -0000

FiNiX wrote:
>>It’s not an extension of Christian Mysticism or anything else; the two are similar, as are most mystic belief systems.

Well, the fundamentals of Buddhism aren’t mystic. The mystic stuff came along later. The fundamentals of Buddhism are actually logic based.

Not mutually exclusive, FiNiX. Would be surprised to hear that most mysticism, regardless of sect, generally starts out as a rejection of an established religious tradition? Mysticism, generally, is turning within oneself to find answers, using a balanced combo of reason and intuition. It isn’t necessarily crystal gazing and “whoo- hoo.” (term used within legit esoteric circles for moronic new age belief)

Hey, Satol, could you tell us a bit more about your theory? I’m interested.

Let me sleep on that, and I’ll post tomorrow.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by FiNiX @ Sat, 26 Jan 2008 02:21:08 -0000

FiNiX — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 02:21:08 -0000

It’s not an extension of Christian Mysticism or anything else; the two are similar, as are most mystic belief systems.

Well, the fundamentals of Buddhism aren’t mystic. The mystic stuff came along later. The fundamentals of Buddhism are actually logic based.

Not trying to be Socratic, BTW, I’ve got a theory, of course, but I’m generally looking for some input from y’all.

Hey, Satol, could you tell us a bit more about your theory? I’m interested.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Satolkin @ Sat, 26 Jan 2008 02:19:45 -0000

Satolkin — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 02:19:45 -0000

FiNiX wrote:

Okay, but that’s a fairly universal tidbit, I don’t see how that makes Buddhism an extension of christian mysticism.

It’s not an extension of Christian Mysticism or anything else; the two are similar, as are most mystic belief systems.

And that’s not quite as universal a concept as you might think.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by FiNiX @ Sat, 26 Jan 2008 01:46:42 -0000

FiNiX — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 01:46:42 -0000

It seems to me that you think religious belief is something contrary to proof. To me, proof is just informed belief.

Actually, I think of belief and proof the same as you seem to. What I meant to say was that if there is evidence that your belief is incorrect, you should change your beliefs accordingly. Christianity sometimes seems to preach blind faith, while Buddhism often preaches the opposite.

FiNiX, that quote is very classic in Buddhism. It’s meaning is essentially that the teacher isn’t important; the teaching is.

Okay, but that’s a fairly universal tidbit, I don’t see how that makes Buddhism an extension of christian mysticism.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Satolkin @ Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:42:03 -0000

Satolkin — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:42:03 -0000

Arandur wrote:

That’s why I say so often that my beliefs are far from blind, but rather my faith is informed by my reason. I hope that makes sense.

It do. You’ve got more than a little gnostic in ya, in a philosophical sense. We know what faith without works is; faith without reason is gibberish.

FiNiX, that quote is very classic in Buddhism. It’s meaning is essentially that the teacher isn’t important; the teaching is.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Arandur @ Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:21:01 -0000

Arandur — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 00:21:01 -0000

A lot to respond to. Hope to get to it here and elsewhere on the site later this weekend. In the meantime, this struck me:

Oh? So Christian mysticism involves accepting proof over belief?

For a moment I just stared at the screen here, then I realized my difficulty: we have such a different understanding of the terms “proof” and “belief” that you can form the sentence above and it means something to you, but to me, I had to think really hard to see that sentence as something other than gibberish. :)

It seems to me that you think religious belief is something contrary to proof. To me, proof is just informed belief. Proof is evidence that helps further describe truth. Belief is acknowledgement and assent of the will to truth. So proof and belief in what is true should conform to each other naturally, and by definition (for me). A belief based on misinformation is not a belief in truth; since religious belief is about believing the truth, it should of course follow the evidence.

That’s why I say so often that my beliefs are far from blind, but rather my faith is informed by my reason. I hope that makes sense.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by ratboy @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:57:40 -0000

ratboy — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:57:40 -0000

That Buddha…what a kidder…

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by FiNiX @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:53:53 -0000

FiNiX — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:53:53 -0000

“If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”-the Buddha.

Lolwut?? I hadn’t heard that one before.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Satolkin @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:45:33 -0000

Satolkin — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:45:33 -0000

FiNiX wrote:
>>and both consider the message of more importance than the messenger.

Not entirely sure what you’re getting at with that.

“If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.”-the Buddha.
“I do nothing but the will of He who sent Me.” -paraphrase of Christ. Don’t remember which Gospel.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by FiNiX @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:26:39 -0000

FiNiX — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:26:39 -0000

and both consider the message of more importance than the messenger.

Not entirely sure what you’re getting at with that.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Satolkin @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:22:06 -0000

Satolkin — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:22:06 -0000

FiNiX wrote:
>>Careful- the closer you get to Buddhism, the closer you get towards Christian Mysticism. There is really very little separation between those kinds of disciplines (particularly those two); only the names are changed.

Oh? So Christian mysticism involves accepting proof over belief?

Gnosis, generally, which is different than proof. What I was getting at are a couple of things- both base their practice on a kind of internalized contemplation, and both consider the message of more importance than the messenger.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by FiNiX @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:15:05 -0000

FiNiX — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:15:05 -0000

Careful- the closer you get to Buddhism, the closer you get towards Christian Mysticism. There is really very little separation between those kinds of disciplines (particularly those two); only the names are changed.

Oh? So Christian mysticism involves accepting proof over belief?

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Satolkin @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:02:55 -0000

Satolkin — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:02:55 -0000

FiNiX wrote:
>>It is very easy to see G-d in nature; note the speedy growth of neo- paganism and nature- based religions today. As we generally move away from an everyday contact and appreciation of nature, G-d gets harder to see.

Satolkin, might you please give us some examples of the ways in which you see god in nature?

Well, I don’t exactly, I see the hand of G-d in nature, if ye ken the difference. Life, renewal of life from death, seasonal cycles, microcosmic/ macrocosmic correspondences, some of the seemingly miraculous stuff we’re finding through quantum mechanics, etc..
Order, purpose, functionality, maybe.

>A lot of modern society concerns itself with primarily with grabass, i.e. what can you do for me?
>Tough to see G-d under those conditions, methinks.

I’m agnostic, leaning still further away from Christianity and more toward Buddhism, yet that isn’t at all how I think.

Careful- the closer you get to Buddhism, the closer you get towards Christian Mysticism. There is really very little separation between those kinds of disciplines (particularly those two); only the names are changed.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by FiNiX @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:43:39 -0000

FiNiX — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:43:39 -0000

It is very easy to see G-d in nature; note the speedy growth of neo- paganism and nature- based religions today. As we generally move away from an everyday contact and appreciation of nature, G-d gets harder to see.

Satolkin, might you please give us some examples of the ways in which you see god in nature?

A lot of modern society concerns itself with primarily with grabass, i.e. what can you do for me?
Tough to see G-d under those conditions, methinks.

I’m agnostic, leaning still further away from Christianity and more toward Buddhism, yet that isn’t at all how I think.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by ratboy @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:31:35 -0000

ratboy — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:31:35 -0000

One can no doubt see a god/gods etc. where ever one expects to see said being…in the expected form no doubt…
Seeing the God-Creature dressed in drag at Safeway would be a subject for party chatter for weeks…OK…seeing said being at all anywheres would make my year…

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Satolkin @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:11:31 -0000

Satolkin — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:11:31 -0000

emptycalm wrote:
>> <i>Arandur wrote:</i>
>>Except that for most of human history, man has had no problem whatsoever recognizing the divine…it has only been in recent years that an elite, prideful few in select dominant cultures have become so full of themselves that they have deluded themselves into thinking that nothing exists but their own egos and theories of the world.

>(sorry if that sounds harsh, but that’s more to show the extremity of the atheistic idea in light of history—and to poke a little fun :) )

Or maybe we’re getting smart enough to not need god anymore ^_ Plus atheists don’t think they’re the only ones who exist or that they’re even 100% on. They just don’t think your god exists. or any god really.

Allow me to add something of a twist to this. I largely agree with Arandur- man has gotten himself to a point where he doesn’t see the Divine anymore, and it is partially due to pride and narcisism. I don’t think it’s a matter of man getting smart enough to not “need” G-d, in fact, I’d argue that to be a regression.
There is another element to this, though. It is very easy to see G-d in nature; note the speedy growth of neo- paganism and nature- based religions today. As we generally move away from an everyday contact and appreciation of nature, G-d gets harder to see. A lot of modern society concerns itself with primarily with grabass, i.e. what can you do for me?
Tough to see G-d under those conditions, methinks.

But the view of G-d purely as nature is a primitive one, and one that we have perhaps outgrown. The question is, where can a person “see” G-d today, if they care to look?

Not trying to be Socratic, BTW, I’ve got a theory, of course, but I’m generally looking for some input from y’all.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by emptycalm @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:40:44 -0000

emptycalm — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:40:44 -0000

Arandur wrote:
>Except that for most of human history, man has had no problem whatsoever recognizing the divine…it has only been in recent years that an elite, prideful few in select dominant cultures have become so full of themselves that they have deluded themselves into thinking that nothing exists but their own egos and theories of the world.

(sorry if that sounds harsh, but that’s more to show the extremity of the atheistic idea in light of history—and to poke a little fun :) )

Or maybe we’re getting smart enough to not need god anymore ^_ Plus atheists don’t think they’re the only ones who exist or that they’re even 100% on. They just don’t think your god exists. or any god really.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by absoluteliquid @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:39:43 -0000

absoluteliquid — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:39:43 -0000

Fuck… I couldn’t figure out why all my birds kept dying… I’ve been going through about five a month…

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by kookookachoo @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:22:12 -0000

kookookachoo — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:22:12 -0000

rb, people who keep pet birds do not use teflon pans. When used, teflon sends particles into the air that can kill a bird. Usually it happens when the teflon pan is overheated and a massive amount of these particles are released. But it’s not a good idea to use them just in case you accidentally overheat them. Hope that splain’s it, Lucy.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by ratboy @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:58:29 -0000

ratboy — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:58:29 -0000

Arandur wrote:
>... That said, some people I trust have observed some supernatural abilities exhibited by Satanist “witches.”

erm…WHAT supernatural abilities have y’all ever observed from those who call themselves witches or are refered to as witches…?

God made Teflon to confound you, AL. And to put parakeets kept caged in the kitchen out of their misery when the burners are on too high. Go figure.

Arandur…I can’t figure what you’re on about with the parakeets(budgies)...is this some strange Yank sport…?

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Satolkin @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:53:16 -0000

Satolkin — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:53:16 -0000

Arandur wrote:
>Satanist “witches.”

Best not to throw those two together, Arandur. They’re not the same, and it’d piss off both witches and Satanists to be confused. Mostly the witches- the Satanists would just laugh.

And, yeah, I’ve known a couple of them, as well.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by Arandur @ Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:39:56 -0000

Arandur — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:39:56 -0000

Let me put it this way, RB: superstition and much mythos arises from people attempting to explain or symbolize the very real spiritual things they recognize. Scientific theories about physical fact can be wrong; spiritual theories about spiritual things can be as well. Superstition was often meaningful symbolism, exaggerated by some to a belief in a more physical reality.

Swiss, no, I don’t consider witches fairy tales, though some traits ascribed to them are (Monty Python comes to mind…). That said, some people I trust have observed some supernatural abilities exhibited by Satanist “witches.”

God made Teflon to confound you, AL. And to put parakeets kept caged in the kitchen out of their misery when the burners are on too high. Go figure.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by FiNiX @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:20:47 -0000

FiNiX — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:20:47 -0000

Arandur wrote:
>Buddhism does, though, recognize an unseen world and spirituality that proves my point—humans have long known these to exist and be important, it is only recently that many among mankind have chosen to ignore anything but the physical and instead believe in a near-solipsistic concept of self.

Well, yes, but part of some versions of Buddhism is that we cannot tell what comes next, if anything. We can only believe, and beliefs can be incorrect. That’s a very important part of many versions of Buddhism.

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by kookookachoo @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:17:23 -0000

kookookachoo — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:17:23 -0000

Oh, rb, LMAO, buddy. I will get the magic specs of sarcasm out, too!

Thanks SC, I figured that was what you meant, I’m just TRYING to be entertaining. (good luck with that one, koo!)

Also, Satol, thank you. Some of MY best friends are bitches (AND, it rhymes!). I include myself in that group!

Questions You'd Ask The God-Creature... replied by ratboy @ Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:31:05 -0000

ratboy — Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:31:05 -0000

one of those mysteries wrapped up in a conundrum…thingys

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