Why have you been doing such a poor job of showing yourself for the last few thousand years?

He would ask why you’ve done such a poor job looking for Him…

Ba-dum- bum.

Did you guys actually script that? Well done.

absoluteliquid wrote:
>He would ask why you’ve done such a poor job looking for Him…

And I would then reply, “in order to find you, would one not have to look so hard that (s)he would see you, regardless of whether you were, in fact, there?”

Except that for most of human history, man has had no problem whatsoever recognizing the divine…it has only been in recent years that an elite, prideful few in select dominant cultures have become so full of themselves that they have deluded themselves into thinking that nothing exists but their own egos and theories of the world.

(sorry if that sounds harsh, but that’s more to show the extremity of the atheistic idea in light of history—and to poke a little fun :) )

In many countries, people have accepted Buddhism, a religion that is most often practiced without reference to any god, for hundreds of years.

“The abs and ratboy show”...check your local listings…

erm…it has only been in recent years…relatively speaking…that folk have stopped recognizing the existence of witches,werewolves,vampires,etc…I guess that aspect of human history can be conveniently overlooked…

I believe that Britney Spears exists…because I see her charming face plastered everywhere…God-Creature…you need a better agent…I’d believe in you if you appeared on Larry King or the other world wide chat shows…

Finix, it’s not that Buddhism is atheistic, it’s just that it’s atheistic. ;-) In other words, there’s never been such a belief in Buddhism as one that says, “If god exists, why can’t we talk to him?” Rather, the concept of “god” is not relevant to the system of spirituality that exists in Buddhism. One could just as easily be a Buddhist theist as a Buddhist atheist… and indeed, in Shinto lies a religion that is a Buddhist (poly)theism, of sorts.

RB, witches most certainly do exist. To deny that they exist makes about as much sense as denying that priests and shaman exist. Indeed, “priest” and “witch” both share the etymological connotation of one who is wise, seasoned, etc. The word “sage” (as in, “a sage old man”) is also related.

Aran, poking fun at the atheists, shame on you (lol).

Now about this witch thing, what kind of witches are they? People that call themselves witches? The special powers kind of witches like Samantha or Bette Midler or the one in the turn a kid into a mouse movie? rb also mentioned werewolves (there—> wolf!) and vampires. Do these exist too? I would tend to lump them in with the witches myself. But you are just saying that these are older wiser people that could go by that name if they chose to do so? Can you explain further, SC?

Some of my best friends are witches.

Jesus, I was laughing while typing that, but it’s actually true. It’s a real tradition, Koo.

Second SC’s remarks on Buddism. I’m ex, BTW.

Buddhism does, though, recognize an unseen world and spirituality that proves my point—humans have long known these to exist and be important, it is only recently that many among mankind have chosen to ignore anything but the physical and instead believe in a near-solipsistic concept of self.

Vamps and wolfies and similar superstitions were based as much on fairy tale as anything else. There is a difference between that and a recognition of the spiritual world. However, those superstitions did exist in part because of a recognition of the spiritual condition of some types of people, and the existence of spiritual creatures (Christians would call them angels and demons, though there could be a great variety among either). Fairy tales involve the physical embodiments of these ideas, and, since the source of the ideas is often more spiritual, it is no wonder that the physical didn’t exist in its full legendary form.

FiNiX wrote:
And I would then reply, “in order to find you, would one not have to look so hard that (s)he would see you, regardless of whether you were, in fact, there?”

Finding God is not the discovery… it is the adventure…

kookookachoo wrote:
Now about this witch thing, what kind of witches are they? People that call themselves witches?

In a nutshell, yes. In a number of cultures, though, it’s not so much self-recognition as societal recognition. Think along the lines of “witch doctors”. In Appalachian culture prior to the 20th century, midwives, herbalists, dowsers (aka ‘water witches’; precursors of hydrological and geological engineers) and others were frequently called “witches” and were recognized for providing valuable services for which qualified professionals could not be found (or the science did not yet exist).

While their practices may have been based on superstition, witches themselves are not superstitious beings. And Arandur, just to be clear my friend, you’re not including witches in fairy tales, are you?

Arandur wrote:
>Buddhism does, though, recognize an unseen world and spirituality that proves my point—humans have long known these to exist and be important, it is only recently that many among mankind have chosen to ignore anything but the physical and instead believe in a near-solipsistic concept of self.

Vamps and wolfies and similar superstitions were based as much on fairy tale as anything else. There is a difference between that and a recognition of the spiritual world. However, those superstitions did exist in part because of a recognition of the spiritual condition of some types of people, and the existence of spiritual creatures (Christians would call them angels and demons, though there could be a great variety among either). Fairy tales involve the physical embodiments of these ideas, and, since the source of the ideas is often more spiritual, it is no wonder that the physical didn’t exist in its full legendary form.

Dear Arandur…Please borrow Empress kookoo’s “magic specs of irony” and re-read your post…You can refer to vamps,werewolves etc. as “fairy tales”...and yet differentiate from a belief in a “spirit world”...one way or another,m’dear…not both

God…if nothing sticks to teflon…what makes teflon stick to the frying pan???

one of those mysteries wrapped up in a conundrum…thingys

Oh, rb, LMAO, buddy. I will get the magic specs of sarcasm out, too!

Thanks SC, I figured that was what you meant, I’m just TRYING to be entertaining. (good luck with that one, koo!)

Also, Satol, thank you. Some of MY best friends are bitches (AND, it rhymes!). I include myself in that group!

Arandur wrote:
>Buddhism does, though, recognize an unseen world and spirituality that proves my point—humans have long known these to exist and be important, it is only recently that many among mankind have chosen to ignore anything but the physical and instead believe in a near-solipsistic concept of self.

Well, yes, but part of some versions of Buddhism is that we cannot tell what comes next, if anything. We can only believe, and beliefs can be incorrect. That’s a very important part of many versions of Buddhism.

Let me put it this way, RB: superstition and much mythos arises from people attempting to explain or symbolize the very real spiritual things they recognize. Scientific theories about physical fact can be wrong; spiritual theories about spiritual things can be as well. Superstition was often meaningful symbolism, exaggerated by some to a belief in a more physical reality.

Swiss, no, I don’t consider witches fairy tales, though some traits ascribed to them are (Monty Python comes to mind…). That said, some people I trust have observed some supernatural abilities exhibited by Satanist “witches.”

God made Teflon to confound you, AL. And to put parakeets kept caged in the kitchen out of their misery when the burners are on too high. Go figure.

Arandur wrote:
>Satanist “witches.”

Best not to throw those two together, Arandur. They’re not the same, and it’d piss off both witches and Satanists to be confused. Mostly the witches- the Satanists would just laugh.

And, yeah, I’ve known a couple of them, as well.

Arandur wrote:
>... That said, some people I trust have observed some supernatural abilities exhibited by Satanist “witches.”

erm…WHAT supernatural abilities have y’all ever observed from those who call themselves witches or are refered to as witches…?

God made Teflon to confound you, AL. And to put parakeets kept caged in the kitchen out of their misery when the burners are on too high. Go figure.

Arandur…I can’t figure what you’re on about with the parakeets(budgies)...is this some strange Yank sport…?

rb, people who keep pet birds do not use teflon pans. When used, teflon sends particles into the air that can kill a bird. Usually it happens when the teflon pan is overheated and a massive amount of these particles are released. But it’s not a good idea to use them just in case you accidentally overheat them. Hope that splain’s it, Lucy.

Fuck… I couldn’t figure out why all my birds kept dying… I’ve been going through about five a month…

Arandur wrote:
>Except that for most of human history, man has had no problem whatsoever recognizing the divine…it has only been in recent years that an elite, prideful few in select dominant cultures have become so full of themselves that they have deluded themselves into thinking that nothing exists but their own egos and theories of the world.

(sorry if that sounds harsh, but that’s more to show the extremity of the atheistic idea in light of history—and to poke a little fun :) )

Or maybe we’re getting smart enough to not need god anymore ^_ Plus atheists don’t think they’re the only ones who exist or that they’re even 100% on. They just don’t think your god exists. or any god really.

emptycalm wrote:
>> <i>Arandur wrote:</i>
>>Except that for most of human history, man has had no problem whatsoever recognizing the divine…it has only been in recent years that an elite, prideful few in select dominant cultures have become so full of themselves that they have deluded themselves into thinking that nothing exists but their own egos and theories of the world.

>(sorry if that sounds harsh, but that’s more to show the extremity of the atheistic idea in light of history—and to poke a little fun :) )

Or maybe we’re getting smart enough to not need god anymore ^_ Plus atheists don’t think they’re the only ones who exist or that they’re even 100% on. They just don’t think your god exists. or any god really.

Allow me to add something of a twist to this. I largely agree with Arandur- man has gotten himself to a point where he doesn’t see the Divine anymore, and it is partially due to pride and narcisism. I don’t think it’s a matter of man getting smart enough to not “need” G-d, in fact, I’d argue that to be a regression.
There is another element to this, though. It is very easy to see G-d in nature; note the speedy growth of neo- paganism and nature- based religions today. As we generally move away from an everyday contact and appreciation of nature, G-d gets harder to see. A lot of modern society concerns itself with primarily with grabass, i.e. what can you do for me?
Tough to see G-d under those conditions, methinks.

But the view of G-d purely as nature is a primitive one, and one that we have perhaps outgrown. The question is, where can a person “see” G-d today, if they care to look?

Not trying to be Socratic, BTW, I’ve got a theory, of course, but I’m generally looking for some input from y’all.