Wow, in a discussion with a friend, I came across four great sites and very sensible arguments against gay marriage that I thought I would share with you all.

Secular Case Against Same-Sex Marriage:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/108219…

A moral and secular one:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homos…

The Consequences of Same Sex Marriage:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Family/Marriag…

The LIberal Case against Same Sex Marriage:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_…

Gee, thanks, Aran.

As I’ve said before about gay marriage, who the hell cares…

Marry someone if you want, DON’T do it if you don’t want to. How hard is that?

The first dude is expressing his opinions, and only that. People have a right to their opinions. Other people have a right to disagree. They also get to have their opinions! Yay! He comes right out and says the research is murky. Useless research? I guess it supports everyone’s opinion on the subject then, including mine (see above, the who cares section). (Oh, the bit about getting free health insurance for the spouse, I got news for him, IT AIN’T FREE! Ask any married couple, you get to PAY for that. Dude obviously isn’t married…)

The second one is too boring to even read thoroughly, so i just skimmed. If she wants to go on for several pages about the procreation aspect (as all four of these people seem to do), let her. Again, it doesn’t matter. Just call it something other than marriage, that seems to be the thrust of that entire rigamarole, and she agrees with that!

Number three is religious propaganda masquerading as facts (the religious often do this, so we should not be surprised). I am of the same opinion as my parents and the religionists of some decades ago. The rate of illegitimate births is caused fully by those damned hippies and their free love crap from the sixties. That was everyone’s opinion for decades! Now, suddenly, it’s all those bad homos that caused it! Oh, my! We queens had no idea it was our fault and we deeply apologize… well, I’ll apologize for the other queens, they’re still too busy taking responsibilty for the AIDS crisis. Additionally, the books mentioned for young readers have NOT ONE WORD about marriage in them, at least not GAY marriage. Too, the Boston Archdioscese (sp?) probably couldn’t afford to offer adoption services anymore, what with having to pay off those lawsuits to the priests’ former BOYfriends. And, the SUBJECT of the sermon that the poor dear swedish pastor was indicted for isn’t mentioned… The authors will let us ASSUME that it was gay marriage, but I kinda doubt it. (I’m willing to place a small wager on this)

So, number four, liberal schmiberal! It’s all just several more boring pages on procreation and marriage (altho I do like the oblique reference to Ed Geen on page four). That’s absolutely all marriage is for, fine, I guess so. Opinions are important, even when you have to hammer them into people over and over again. When you drone on and on and on about a subject, the opinions become fact. I didn’t know this! So, watch me drone…lol

Call it what you want to call it. None of these four wants to call it marriage, two and four have no objection to us girls having legitimized relationships. One and three have other problems, which I gladly pointed out. I’ve said before, I don’t wanna be married, nor do I want some stupid legal entanglement with another person. My “friends” and I love each other, that’s all we care about. That’s all that should matter, but every damned person and their grandmother seems to want to weigh in on this subject. Go ahead! After this rant, I’ll probably continue to ignore it and soon enough I’ll be dead, so it certainly won’t matter to me then (like it ever did!).

Love (and with tongue firmly in cheek),
Ken

Just thought you’d like to hear some of the summaries of opinions widely held out there. Of course it’s all opinion—any public policy is ultimately opinion, whatever the basis used for it.

If some form of legitimized relationship is all this were about, it would probably be law throughout the country. However, as long as it remains an attempt to expand the definition of “marriage,” there are serious implications and problems with that that many people have justifiable concerns over. Considering what has happened both in other countries and in this country with challenges to religious liberty, how is religious liberty not a valid concern?

OK, in all groups of people, there are nuts. I’ve always said that when anyone gets strange, I’ll be happy to call them on it. When I first came out, I was very militant about it and I hung with a group of friends who felt the same way. Before the late 1970’s, gay people were badly treated (and still are in some ways, but things are better nowadays). I’d like to think that my behavior and my activities back then had something to do with making life better for gay and lesbian people, and actually, I do know that it did. If you had asked the average G/L person back then if they’d like to be married, they would have assumed that you were talking about marrying a person of the opposite sex, i.e. that the question was actually “Don’t you want to be normal?” and the answer, of course, would be “Hell, no!” We didn’t want to be “married”, even to a person of our own sex! We had better things to worry about, like keeping our jobs, our homes and our lives together without being fucked over by the rest of society. We gay MALES did not want to marry each other, either, THAT was for straight people and why would we want to imitate straight people? We were like “We’re here, we’re queer, get over it! (and while you’re at it, stop fucking with us and leave us the hell alone!)”. Shortly after we gained some of our “rights”, along came AIDS. For 12-15 years, our movement, especially the gay MALE movement, was in a complete tailspin. Our losses were absolutely devastating (not to diminish the losses in the straight community, I would never do that). Let me tell you where I’m going with this:

I love lesbians. I feel they play an equal and important part in the “gay revolution” (if that’s what you want to call it -lol). But there are fundamental differences between men and women (I’m sure EVERYONE knows this). These differences also are present in the gay community. Just because both gay men and lesbians sleep with the same sex does not mean that our relationships, personalities and our goals are the same. That same sex thing is really one of the only similarities between us and it has brought together what actually are two very disparate communities. (And please, don’t even bring the bisexual and trans folks into it, it’s just TOO crazy then! lol) We have thrown ourselves together to fight for our “rights”, but the males and females really have two different notions of what our needs are.

Here is what I’m convinced has happened. The lesbian community was not nearly as devastated by the AIDS crisis (except devastation and sorrow due to the loss of many gay friends). We males (and many females helped, too!) were kinda busy dealing with the deaths and the aftermath (remember “ACT UP”, “Queer Nation”, AIDS Action Network, etc. Most of these groups were exclusively male, at least at first). We men were trying to survive and help our friends survive. We weren’t worried anymore about equal rights for anyone except AIDS patients. Well, the “equal rights” thing was moving along too, during that time. Many many lesbians stepped in to help out with that situation while we men were more busy trying to live (I still curse Reagan’s ADMINISTRATION every single day. Not Ronnie, though, we all know he didn’t have a clue). Remember what I said, fundamental differences between men and women… Women ARE different, they want different things than men do. Boys don’t dream of marriage and living forever with the person of your dreams, boys don’t play “house” (well, some sissies do, lol). Yes, men want to settle down and have a family, live with and love somebody, but they don’t think about it every hour of every single day of their lives. Many women do do that and again, different goals… (Yes, Kookoo’s generalizing, but I’m sure you get my point!)

So, by the time we gay men turned our heads back into the “rights” fray, things were slightly different. Bisexuals and transexuals had arrived. Indeed, every damned person who had ever even THOUGHT about having sex with another of the same sex was in the mix. And, these others also had different goals. Suddenly, equal housing, no job discrimination, all of those gains just weren’t enough. We had to be EXACTLY like straight people, do everything they do, and nobody better say a damned thing against it, either! (straight OR GAY!) Well, how fucked up is that? The answer is VERY fucked up! We were being told (among other things) that we needed to be able to be married and, of course, many gay men began to agree with that. I myself have simply given up on it, just given up, sorry…

There is a lot of injustice in this world, isn’t there? I use my resources to try to help end injustice. For example, the pathetic way in which our government treated Katrina’s victims. People have died and are still suffering, but as far as we’re concerned, it’s over with. Good job, FEMA! Well, they still need help down there and will for generations to come. But Mardi Gras is back, everything’s 100% normal! NOT! That’s injustice, being unable to marry another man is NOT injustice, at least not in my book. But, oh no, don’t try to tell that to 98% of the GBLT (that’s terrible, I only mentioned Gays Lesbians Bisexuals and Trannies, they’ve added almost every other letter of the alphabet to it, now, these fuckers are so pc, it’s not even funny!) community and almost HALF of the straight community. If I speak my mind on this subject, I’m WRONG and that’s all there is to it, so I’ve actually learned to shut up, except here (lol).

All people are different. Why do we have to pretend that we are the same when it comes to issues like this? I don’t think that the gay community should disengage from society, but why jump into it with both feet? There are a lot of differences between gay and straight people. There’s nothing wrong with that. Gay people have a lot to offer society and they should be a part of it. I find it curious that equal rights movements are always screaming “Celebrate Diversity!”, then they refuse to allow it within their own ranks. This PC thing has been out of control for years. We need a new equal rights group, let’s call it “I’m Entitled To My Own Opinion, So FUCK YOU!” (IETMOOSFU) (eye et moose fu)

Aran, I actually DO agree with a lot of the things that all four of those people (studies) said. And, as you can see, I do care, but just a little bit… The procreation aspect of marriage is one of the most important things about it. Adoption and fostering are NOT the same thing. Gay couples can already adopt in many states and lesbian couples can have their own children, too, if they wish to. That’s not what it’s about for these people tho. They think they’re not “normal” unless they get to do every single damn thing that anyone else gets to do. I kinda wish that everyone was demanding the right to be rich instead (lol). In a way, that actually seems logical, if you look at the way these people act. They think they need to be “normal”. Once they “are”, they won’t be happy then, either. God only knows what they’ll want then!!! I like being special, I’m a special kind of person, I enjoy my life. Being normal is no fun at all and it never has been.
And what the heck IS it, anyway?

As always, with much love, your friend,
Ken

Interesting post. Another that I’m going to have to copy. A few minutes ago I tried to log on here and got a “500” message-no forum. Freaked me out. There are a lot of conversations here that I’d like to record and, of course, people I’d like to stay in contact with if the site ever went down. Since there are so few people on here, now, I think I’ll list a lesser email address, and if you and my other friends here wish to contact me on it, I will give you my main address-one I’m desperately trying to keep free of spam, and am therefore still hesitant to list here.

sielwode@yahoo.com

Anyway, scurrying around this morning, I’ll get back to you later, Ken! (and I love the Moose Fu!)

Thank you, dear. You may always contact me at krshortunifab(at)yahoo(dot)com. In addition, my cell number is 414-801-1439. You always seem to understand my rhetoric, I appreciate that very much.

Warmest wishes, Ken

hey guys I’m back! Lifes been busy! Buat anywhoo, I totally agree with Koo! I hate how people protest against things that people are doing that they don’t believe. If your don’t believe in it then DONT FREAKIN’ DO IT! lol. How hard is that? I’m completely against gay marriage, doesn’t mean I’m going to go parading down the street announcing it to the world! Kinda reminds me of how people protest so much against the mormon church. If you don’t like what we believe in then don’t join our church! Life is soo easy, people just like to complicate themselves to make it that much more intresting :)))

anther thing to consider is, if they are allowing gay people to get married why don’t they allow polygomist to marry as many wives as they want. Since gay seem to keep making “love” the issue. That love is love no matter with who, then in the same way love is love no matter with how many! Then why don’t we let people marry there pets too while were at it?! Like that cat who inherited all this ladies fortune when she passed away! hahaha, marriage is becoming insane! “Love is gentle, love is kind, love will make you loose your mind!”

LDSGal, I’m confused, that latter post of yours goes into one of the reasons that it IS our business and there ARE legitimate concerns that we as citizens and members of a society have about how this social contract of marriage is defined. Your first post, however, seemed to suggest that we shouldn’t oppose gay marriage as public policy at all. Which is it?

Sorry if i sounded a bit contradictory, but what I mean is that I personally don’t care what these people do! But while were at it we should just let polygomist get married to as many people as they want since they “love” their multiple wives and people marry there pets cause there are people who would! lol.

So you don’t care what people do, and we should go ahead and follow gay marriage out to its logical conclusions and allow any sort of relationship to be recognized by the state as marriage?

This would destroy any meaning or significance to the social custom and contract of “marriage.” It would eliminate the state interest in stable families as the foundation of society. Unless state benefits, primarily designed to promote marriage and help married couples to raise families, were eliminated, all sorts of people would try to game the system and abuse those benefits. Reduction of state benefits for traditional marriage harms children, as it makes it more difficult for married couples to raise and provide for children and devote parental time to them, and would further confuse legal and medical status and responsibilities.

And all for what? What’s really the point of extending the term marriage and effectively destroying it?

GAH! okay this is a little frustrating since you can’t really hear the way my voice sounds when I say it. I agree 100% with you, gay couples destroy children, and ruins how we look as a country. But the fact of the matter is that we have freedom of choice, and depending what we choose is the consequences we will have in the after life. I believe that atleast. It’s not like these gay people aren’t already living together and adopting children and living a married life-style. What the hell is a peice of paper going to make on anything? By giving these people the right to get married doesn’t mean we support them. It just means were giving the the freedom to choose to live how they want, and that by doing so the consequences fall upon them. Cause hte fact is, that in a religiouse pont of view, these people are going to recieve a punishment, wether they have a paper that states their married according to the law or not. There gay! and a peice of paper isn’t stopping these people from fornication! Again, this is just my religiouse point of view. There are also parts of this that get complicated like taxes and stuff, which I’m not getting into…hope I’ve explained myself better, sorry for the confusion.

Some of us still drive by occasionally :)

My point here is that what society approves of and what the state supports matters. It has an influence and an effect on most individuals and either allows something harmless or promotes good or evil. I am saying that to some extent we want the government promoting things that are good for society (like traditional marriage). We don’t want it promoting social ills.

It has been said that a good society helps you to be good. Do we really want the converse, which by allowing or supporting ever more immoral license makes it harder to be good, increases confusion and temptation and the various ills that plague society? This is a major reason that gay marriage should not be recognized by the government.

I look at it this way, gay people already live like a married couple wether they are legally married or not. So what diffrence is is gna make if we let them have the flippin’ paper? It’s just gna make them shut up and stop protesting about their rights and everyone will be happy. Except those ofcourse who are against it, but you know what, if you’re against it then don’t do it. Just because were giving them the same rights everyone else in this country has doesn’t mean we support them. We give murderers the right in court to defend themselves even if they did kil 7 people. That doesn’t mean we support murderers, it just means were giving them the right to defend themselves like everyone else. The same is applied to the gays. Let them have the damn rights everyone has! This country is about equality. You claim that if we legalize gay marriage that people are gna look at our country in a negative way, But quite frankly it’s too late for that! The whole world already hates the United States for the fact that we have such liberal thoughts, were the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE. And gay marriage promoting a social ill. Do you mean that literally as in STD’s or something that’s socially bad for the people???

I look at it this way: I don’t fucking care.
Sorry, Koo, we’ve talked a little bit about this previously, but “sexual identity” means fuck- all to me. Live your life, pay your bills, provide for those whom you love and shut the fuck up about it. I ask the same thing thing from both straights and gays. In the greater scheme of things, G-d gives a rat’s ass about your sexuality, and I agree with Him.

wow, pretty frank there satol.HAHAHA :D

LdsGal202 wrote:
>wow, pretty frank there satol.HAHAHA :D

Yeah, it’s major personality flaw. I blame it on a fairly wild, former lifestyle, which I figure killed the part of my brain controlling good taste and manners.

Well, that tells us that you once had good taste and manners? Or maybe that you think you once did…lol.

OK, as the resident homosexual atheist, I am compelled to respond again, but to all three of you, so this might be confusing. And, we’ve gone thru some of this in other topics and I thought we had it “straight” (lol). I am going to generalize as much as possible, I promise!

I see poor word choices in some of the above posts, and I’m not sure if you realize how some of the comments read. I am reading religious bigotry and personal bigotry in some of your remarks. Homosexuality is not immoral. There’s nothing wrong with it. Your religions say that it is wrong, but don’t you see, they are wrong to teach such trifle. I can’t speak for the book of Mormon, but the Bible has all kinds of laws in it that none of you follow or believe and which we’ve gone over in detail in other threads. When homosexuality comes up, suddenly the Bible is absolutely positively inerrant? I say that the Bible is WRONG, YOU get to say that it’s wrong when it comes up with shit that you don’t want to do, but when you agree with one of the rules, it applies to the rest of humankind? (most of whom are not involved in your religion and don’t want to be, but our society must comply with your morals, no matter how WRONG those morals are?) I CAN’T say that the Bible is wrong on something (e.g. it’s attitude toward homos), but YOU can say it’s wrong? I can read just as well as you can, so, beliefs aside, my opinion on this is just as important as yours.The punishment for breaking any of those “stupid” laws in the Bible is quite clear, it’s usually death, so your book is taking these laws seriously. And, I read that you will not get that “reward” in heaven which you are waiting for if you do break them. Paul says that certain transgressions will keep you out of the kingdom of heaven, so it’s in the New Testament also. You’re allowed to believe anything you want, but the rest of us don’t have to do what you or your religion says to do. YOU have to do it, not us! You and your religion do not have the right to condemn other people, except INTERNALLY amongst yourselves. You may feel that I am so headed to hell, no heaven for Kookoo, but you don’t have the right to TELL ME that you feel that way. Keep it to yourself, please! You should put a stop to such religious bigotry, not perpetuate it. I don’t see that in these posts and you say that you are enlightened members of our society. I submit that I am such a person, but it ain’t looking good for you all.

Now, if you personally think that homosexual acts are morally wrong, there’s nothing wrong with that. You can work against gay marriage as a menace to society, that’s perfectly fine. But if that work is coming from a religious perspective and it’s because your religion just plain hates gay people as most religions sure seem to do, then that’s the wrong reason. Remember, I AGREE that gay marriage is unneeded AND I agree with some of your reasoning (see my past posts above) but my position does not have any religious underpinnings. You see, your religion teaches that homosexuality is wrong, so you will be against ANYTHING homosexual, not just marriage. You seem to be using the marriage issue to your own ends. In some cases, those ends are calling for much more than the denial of a marriage license. There are dozens of countries where being openly gay is a death sentence, and it’s RELIGIOUS AND secular persecution. None of you go that far, but it’s there underneath your rhetoric. I think that I can see it, but you don’t.

Enough said. I’m usually wrong when it comes to interpreting your remarks, and I’m willing to admit it, IN ADVANCE this time. Please go over ALL of yours and my “testimony” in the above posts before you reply. I’m sure that I’m imagining some of this, so it ain’t that big a deal, but you tell me…OK?
Love, Kookoo

By the way, I love every single one of you, you ill-mannered tasteless bastards! Love and giggles, Kookoo

GO KOO! I agree w/ you 150% when it comes to christians and the bible, there are PLENTY of flaws in the bible, it’s ben translated several times, plus many pages were stolen from it & the jews changed a lot of the things in the bible when they saw it didn’y make sense or that it wasn’t convenient for them to follow that rule. IT IS SO TRUE that when theres something in the bible we dnt want to follow or merely that we don’t understand it that we automatically say how WRONG it is, but when it comes to a personal religiouse belief it’s suddenly right. Hah! we’re hypocrits I’ll admit it. Don’t know if I’ve ever mentioned THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE, it’s a book mormons have which are some books that were taken out of the bible and restored by revelation. Also mormons have what we call a quadruple, which is the bible,BOM,D&C, & TPGP all in one book, just for easy carrying. In our versions of the bible a lot of the mal-translations have been fixed. Anywhoo, I agree with ya koo. And I say 95% of peoples opinions on homosexuals are based on there faith and what there taught & what the bible says. Sorry if I offended you in any way wasn’t my intention just trying to prove my point using what I believe :)))

kookookachoo wrote:
>Well, that tells us that you once had good taste and manners? Or maybe that you think you once did…lol.

Well, when I was about 4. Nah, not even then. My mom still refers to me as a child as a “precocious bastard.”

Your religions say that it is wrong,

No, no, NO. Koo, dammit, you know I love ya, but “our” religions say fuck- all about “homosexuality being wrong.” It’s misinterpretation. I know I can’t turn you from the whole atheist thing, but trust me when I say some of us actually know what our religions say and don’t say. Don’t fall into the trap of taking the fundies interpretation of the bible as being what the bible is about. Don’t make me get all rabbinical on yer ass. :D

but don’t you see, they are wrong to teach such trifle.

They don’t.

I say that the Bible is WRONG,

Dude. No. The mainstream interpretation of the bible is wrong.
I swear to G-d, if I lived about 12 states closer, I’d take you out for beers and set your ass straight on this.

Can we have shots of tequila, too? Yummy! I’ll travel 12 states for that! Of course, I’ll do it just for the beer, too, I’m easy!