Atheism Defined replied by ratboy @ Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:36:03 -0000

ratboy — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:36:03 -0000

GodsPromises wrote:
>Psalm 145:18

The LORD is near to all who call on him,
>to all who call on him in truth.

So is just joking about with the God-creature an option…?

Atheism Defined replied by ratboy @ Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:34:25 -0000

ratboy — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:34:25 -0000

FiNiX…taking the pith…

Atheism Defined replied by kookookachoo @ Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:37:23 -0000

kookookachoo — Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:37:23 -0000

Aran, you don’t offend me at all, I was just being strident. Thank you for your reply. I am sorry if I got too huffy.

FiNiX, your replies are tremendous. Thank you for your input on this subject.

Atheism Defined replied by FiNiX @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:31:47 -0000

FiNiX — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:31:47 -0000

Lol… AL…

Atheism Defined replied by absoluteliquid @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:09:03 -0000

absoluteliquid — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:09:03 -0000

Atheism is to religion what baldness is to hair color…

Atheism Defined replied by Arandur @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:29:14 -0000

Arandur — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:29:14 -0000

I didn’t mean to offend, Koo. It is helpful to have those definitions and know that you agree with them, thank you. Especially on this site, I will tend to question everything :)

I didn’t see a theistic religious belief in there, but as you say, I do see those beliefs as similar to theism in that they represent a belief system that takes some things on a certain kind of faith.

As for the goals/impulses/whatever that are just “THERE,” I’m not disagreeing with them or saying they’re bad, I’m just saying that I want to know WHY they are “THERE.” It’s an interesting question, and it may be useful to know. It may tell us something about ourselves and the world/universe. That’s why I brought that stuff up.

Atheism Defined replied by GodsPromises @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:15:19 -0000

GodsPromises — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:15:19 -0000

Psalm 145:18

The LORD is near to all who call on him,
to all who call on him in truth.

Atheism Defined replied by kookookachoo @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:12:15 -0000

kookookachoo — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:12:15 -0000

Sorry, hon, I’ll take it out, you’re the only one that I wanted to see it anyway. heehee

And a very Happy St. Valentine’s day to everyone, also.

Atheism Defined replied by absoluteliquid @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:44:57 -0000

absoluteliquid — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:44:57 -0000

I was just trying to spark some debate is all… I’d probably argue anything you posted at this point just to get some spicy in the sauce…

.... ... ... ... btw… happy valentines peoples…

Atheism Defined replied by absoluteliquid @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:44:18 -0000

absoluteliquid — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:44:18 -0000

Nice…

Atheism Defined replied by kookookachoo @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:27:08 -0000

kookookachoo — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:27:08 -0000

You know, I just shouldn’t have brought it up. Talk about can’t see the other fellow’s viewpoint, I have been accused of that myself moons ago on this very site. These are definitions, they are not beliefs… I do not understand why some of you don’t get this. I do not believe in god or other supernatural claptrap. So it doesn’t affect my life in any way whatsoever. So it’s not something that I think about ever except here. I am trying to explain my point of view, but nobody understands it, they just want to turn the words around to suit themselves.

AL, argue all you want about the definition of arbitrary, it doesn’t matter. The sentence can’t be changed out of what it says. INDEPENDENT of all arbitrary assumptions and creeds. Means WITHOUT them. Plus your reason may be arbitrary, mine is not. Maybe that’s why I’m an atheist and you are not. It INVOLVES a certain mental attitude, it doesn’t revolve completely around such attitude. That attitude is not the be all and end all of atheism. This is just a definition, not dogma. I have that particular mental attitude, you don’t. It’s as simple as that. You get to feel how you want about it and so do I. We feel differently, don’t we? But we already knew that a long time ago.

Aran, as I said, these are not my definitions, I did not write them. I agree with most of them, but that agreement is tempered by my own reason. I am trying to show you (all) what atheists say about themselves to try to help you to understand atheism better. You asked me to do this. Let me ask you, do you see any reference to God or any kind of RELIGIOUS belief in that paragraph? It’s not in there because atheists know that we’re on our own and that we have to depend on ourselves to run our own lives and try to help make it a better world for everyone. It may be a belief system, you may call it what you like, it’s still there. These are not gifts from God, they’re just THERE. How can you expect me to give credit to something that doesn’t exist? There is no credit to give to anything. My mind exists, that is all I have, you may have something different in your mind. Lost is as lost does, my dear. I’m not lost and neither are 90 percent of the atheists that I know. (I think that at least 10% of the entire race IS lost, not just 10% of the atheists – lol)
So, what is wrong with these goals, or impulses as you call them? Should we not prize our life on earth and always strive to improve it? These goals seem worthy and even noble to me. Do you want a social system based on reason and justice? Sounds good to me. I want that. Is there something wrong with having faith in humankind and our efforts to transform world culture (should we feel the need to do so)? These are laudable goals. You need God to get you there? Fine by me. I don’t, but I’m there anyway. Would you rather that I worked against these things? Many people DO and guess what? Some of them are religionists. Religionist or not, they had best not get in MY way. I WILL do what I can do to make my life better and help to make life better for those around me.

P.S. This reply has now been edited

Atheism Defined replied by FiNiX @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:41:05 -0000

FiNiX — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:41:05 -0000

So atheists try to determine the “why’s” of life, like why we’re here, why they have this self-evident belief in something good, how they ought to live, etc.?

That is correct. Those questions have nothing to do with atheism, as far as I know. The thing is, while they can come to conclusions, they simply can’t call their conclusion “fact” unless there is conclusive evidence.

Atheism Defined replied by Arandur @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:18:03 -0000

Arandur — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:18:03 -0000

So atheists try to determine the “why’s” of life, like why we’re here, why they have this self-evident belief in something good, how they ought to live, etc.? If so, sounds more agnostic.

It does not. It states that those explanations should not be accepted as fact.

Dogmatically, it seems. As in, not allowing them to even be considered valid.

If there is no scientific evidence, then it is a theory. That is still knowledge. We know that it is a theory.

Even scientific evidences are only backups to theories. Of course everything we think we know is our best guess. That’s no reason to discount theism any more than it is to discount the physical laws. Whatever belief system you adhere to is your best guess at what’s true, and you should never be complacent in your belief because of that.

Atheism Defined replied by absoluteliquid @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 02:48:08 -0000

absoluteliquid — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 02:48:08 -0000

FiNiX wrote:
>If there is no scientific evidence, then it is a theory. That is still knowledge. We know that it is a theory.

Ah… if only everyone held this seemingly simple yet profound view…Especially our leading elite…

Atheism Defined replied by FiNiX @ Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:51:47 -0000

FiNiX — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:51:47 -0000

Does atheism attempt to discover that which is not currently known about its assumptions?

Yes.

it seems to me that atheism as a belief system encourages just acceptance of the basic assumptions and rejection of any attempt to explain or understand those assumptions.

It does not. It states that those explanations should not be accepted as fact.

I’ve talked elsewhere about how scientific evidence is not the only form of knowledge and indeed has not and cannot explain everything that we perceive exists in some fashion.

If there is no scientific evidence, then it is a theory. That is still knowledge. We know that it is a theory.

Atheism Defined replied by Arandur @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:11:48 -0000

Arandur — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:11:48 -0000

Does atheism attempt to discover that which is not currently known about its assumptions? I say “lost” because it seems to me that atheism as a belief system encourages just acceptance of the basic assumptions and rejection of any attempt to explain or understand those assumptions. Seems more dogmatic than most theism, actually.

I’ve talked elsewhere about how scientific evidence is not the only form of knowledge and indeed has not and cannot explain everything that we perceive exists in some fashion, so insisting on scientific evidence for everything is to just ignore whole realms of existence and knowledge, settling into complacency about things without bothering to investigate (see above paragraph).

Atheism Defined replied by FiNiX @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:52:47 -0000

FiNiX — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:52:47 -0000

Sounds arbitrary and rather lost, to me :)

Okay, I’m not going to go over the whole arbitrary thing with you. Koo opened that can of worms, not me.

The “rather lost” part is what I disagree with. Simply put, atheism means that instead of assuming, we accept that we don’t currently know. I don’t think there’s anything “lost” about not knowing that which cannot, by current means, be known.

(It also seems to me that coming to a conclusion without scientific evidence would be no less lost.)

Atheism Defined replied by Arandur @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:37:11 -0000

Arandur — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:37:11 -0000

There seem to be a lot of assumptions in your definitions that I don’t know how they wouldn’t be arbitrary without God. For instance, all of the positive yearnings and “commitments” for adhering to reason, justice, moral obligation, the idea of “inherent, immutable, impersonal laws,” prizing and improving life on earth, potential for good, etc. All of these are marks of a belief system, and it seems this belief system wants to presume all of those things we theists see as gifts from God but just decides arbitrarily to not give God the credit for them. Instead it doesn’t know who or what to give the credit to, since these impulses seem to just simply exist apart from human creation.

Sounds arbitrary and rather lost, to me :)

Atheism Defined replied by absoluteliquid @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:25:43 -0000

absoluteliquid — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:25:43 -0000

kookookachoo wrote:
>Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a lifestyle and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

I would argue that human reason IS arbitrary for the most part, as well as experience…
And as for the scientific method… as we delve into the realms of quantum physics and the areas of science dealing with the very makeup of our reality we find that the simple act of observation has a direct effect on what we are trying to observe or measure… rendering most methods and consequent data received also arbitrary…
So in effect…
Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Atheism Defined replied by kookookachoo @ Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:47:46 -0000

kookookachoo — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:47:46 -0000

I’ve been doing some research and I found some materials from the lessons and lectures on atheism that I attended oh, so many years (and years and years)ago. These are not my words, but definitions that I was taught:

Atheism is the Weltanschauung (comprehensive conception of the world) of persons who are free from theism (free from religion). It is predicated on ancient Greek Materialism.

Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a lifestyle and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.

Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent concious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind, finding the resources within themselves, can and must create their own destiny. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism’s “faith” is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment that is, in its very essence, life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold and creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited.

Some of you have asked me for definitions and facts about atheism. This is a start.

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