Abortion replied by ratboy @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:27:21 -0000

ratboy — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:27:21 -0000

kookoo…odds on favourite for the catch…

Abortion replied by kookookachoo @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:37:45 -0000

kookookachoo — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:37:45 -0000

I hope it’s for the nurse, can’t quite catch him!

Abortion replied by FiNiX @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:29:19 -0000

FiNiX — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:29:19 -0000

Sure! In the meantime, could you help me search for the euthanasia? Y’know… Just in case…

I’m just sure I left it in one of these drawers…

Abortion replied by kookookachoo @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:25:34 -0000

kookookachoo — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 09:25:34 -0000

Oh, no, now I must BACK away… Thank you Dr. ratboy, two aspirin and call you in the morning? OK, will do! No need to be rummaging around in that closet, I’ll just see myself out… Oh, what an adorable male nurse! Can I spend the weekend?

Abortion replied by ratboy @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:40:41 -0000

ratboy — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:40:41 -0000

PLEASE…who is the doctor here…?...Now where did I stash that cattle prod…?

Abortion replied by kookookachoo @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:42:07 -0000

kookookachoo — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 02:42:07 -0000

I know i would prefer one!

Abortion replied by FiNiX @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0000

FiNiX — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:50:50 -0000

Sure you wouldn’t prefer a chainsaw?

Abortion replied by ratboy @ Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:18:36 -0000

ratboy — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 00:18:36 -0000

kookookachoo wrote:
>Gosh almighty, that page six is the longest page on the site, still skimming it, boys and girls! Mercy me!

Stand back…stand back…kookoo needs emergency eye-strain surgery…FiNiX…you shall assist Dr. ratboy…power drill…if you please…

Abortion replied by Arandur @ Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:15:34 -0000

Arandur — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 17:15:34 -0000

You’re welcome ;)

Abortion replied by kookookachoo @ Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:15:21 -0000

kookookachoo — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 05:15:21 -0000

Gosh almighty, that page six is the longest page on the site, still skimming it, boys and girls! Mercy me!

Abortion replied by emptycalm @ Sat, 05 Jan 2008 06:58:44 -0000

emptycalm — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 06:58:44 -0000

PreteristView wrote:
>> emptycalm wrote:
>>> ratboy wrote:
>>>Can’t we save the lives of fetuses and help them to become good Hindus,Moslems,Buddists etc…?

>No way dude. Other religions are terrorists or wrong.

coolll….wish I figured this feature out before.

I think it’s new. I think. Maybe I’m just slow.

Abortion replied by kookookachoo @ Sat, 05 Jan 2008 05:20:27 -0000

kookookachoo — Sat, 05 Jan 2008 05:20:27 -0000

I skimmed most of that, now kiss and make up! Kookoo has (once again) left the building!

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:50:57 -0000

PreteristView — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:50:57 -0000

emptycalm wrote:
>> ratboy wrote:
>>Can’t we save the lives of fetuses and help them to become good Hindus,Moslems,Buddists etc…?

No way dude. Other religions are terrorists or wrong.

coolll….wish I figured this feature out before.

Abortion replied by emptycalm @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:39:50 -0000

emptycalm — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 19:39:50 -0000

ratboy wrote:
>Can’t we save the lives of fetuses and help them to become good Hindus,Moslems,Buddists etc…?

No way dude. Other religions are terrorists or wrong.

Abortion replied by Arandur @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:50:05 -0000

Arandur — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:50:05 -0000

“It is not what we try to manage, and control in others – but our Faith in GOD. I am not stating that we do not act upon our convictions where we have authority, like voting for legislation or sharing what Scripture states about the nature of GOD and HIS Will for us, only that it is not done in judgment and in condemnation but through the Love of Christ.

If you are wanting for it to be illegal to keep people from sinning against God, we are selves cannot even be sinless.”

I don’t know how we weren’t able to sum this up together before; we must have been really misunderstanding each other. What you just said in that first paragraph really sounds like what I was trying to get at, too! Maybe we were just fighting over a misperception of that other sentence of yours I quoted; I guess I gave you the impression that I wanted it to be illegal for that purpose, but I don’t. It’s for the first purpose.

What I’d really like to explore more (and I’ve heard a recent quote from Mike Huckabee saying just the same thing) is what more we can do on a social and governmental level to help provide alternatives to abortion, to give people hope, to banish their desperation and show them compassion and comfort. There are many charities doing a good job of this already, but they are unfortunately limited by volunteers and funds and geographic reach.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:36:42 -0000

PreteristView — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 16:36:42 -0000

No problem, Arandur. I am not condoning abortion, but at the same time I know GOD is in control. It is not what we try to manage, and control in others – but our Faith in GOD. I am not stating that we do not act upon our convictions where we have authority, like voting for legislation or sharing what Scripture states about the nature of GOD and HIS Will for us, only that it is not done in judgment and in condemnation but through the Love of Christ.

If your heart is telling you that abortion is wrong and it should be illegal, if you know it wrong and against GOD, that is fine, too – both are righteous discernments, and yet our concern should be only for saving the lost with the LOVE OF CHRIST. The Love of Christ gets lost in the adamant and vehement call for the severity of the law.

If you are wanting for it to be illegal to keep people from sinning against God, we are selves cannot even be sinless.

And if you are concerned for the lives of the unborn, they are in the hands of God.

Your passion for obeying God is a gift, and even in the most horrendous of times, God still says, “Be still and know that I AM GOD.” Be still doesn’t always mean that we don’t act, but that we are not overcome in our hearts by the wickedness of this world.

That is all that I was trying to convey. I think we spend so much time on the don’ts we don’t emphasize to the dos. We are saying to people to choose life, now we need to show them the “LIFE” so that they may cope.

Abortion replied by Arandur @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:44:45 -0000

Arandur — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:44:45 -0000

I’ve been praying and thinking on what happened here since we left it yesterday, and I want to apologize again. I don’t know how it got out of hand or got bitter, but I’m sorry for my part in it. I know I got distracted in some details and side arguments; it would have been better to start fresh and discuss the main point of legality from different angles.

So I just want to say again, PV, I’m sorry.

Abortion replied by Arandur @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:35:01 -0000

Arandur — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:35:01 -0000

(what “it”?)
Accepted and forgiven. I hope that you will accept my apologies here for offending you and wherever I have mischaracterized your position.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:30:55 -0000

PreteristView — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:30:55 -0000

My apologies in contending…May it be revealed to you by other means.

Abortion replied by Arandur @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:20:30 -0000

Arandur — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:20:30 -0000

I wasn’t talking about merely your preterist interpretations, but all of your interpretations, which you assert as true, to the best of your knowledge. I express only the same belief about my own interpretations.

Of course Christ is the Head of His Church. Note the singular.
If you wish to discuss Catholicism, we should do it in another thread. Just as I have said above, you express a certainty against Catholicism just as I express that it is True.

“CHRIST IS THE TRUTH, THE WAY, & THE LIFE and that everyone comes to the Heavenly FATHER, THROUGH HIM”
I’m glad we agree.

I would ask you not to insult my intelligence. I have said that I do not know chapter and verse and so I look things up, and this takes time. I also have learned some of original language and meanings and have access to more. Recalling these things from the top of one’s head does not make one more intelligent or more correct. Neither does spending time in the Word; though this certainly helps us to understand God, many Christians have grown extremely close to Christ while being illiterate, and while experiencing the living Tradition of Christ in the Church. I have heard nearly the entire Bible read at least 7 times in my life, in addition to my reading of it.

I freely admit, again, that legislation won’t end abortion (nothing short of the total conversion of the world will); we just disagree because I still think it is necessary and will help, and you do not.

Abortion replied by Arandur @ Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:08:14 -0000

Arandur — Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:08:14 -0000

Sorry for not banishing “perfect” from my vocabulary. For me it was semantics. I was expressing frustration that my views were not being seen as consistent when I believed they were. I wasn’t being critical in the chiding sense about 46 chromosomes. I was trying to lighten the mood a little by agreeing with your point and trying to refine a point I share with you to more precision, since I tend to be very specific about abortionist’s definitions of when life begins to show how arbitrary they are usually being and expect the same scrutiny from them about my own definitions. I’m sorry that I failed at this attempt at comaraderie.

PV, with 1 Corinthians Ch2 (v15) I was referring to this: “The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment 9 by anyone.” I wasn’t referring to Paul’s vision, and I apologized in that thread for making such a big deal about that, because I didn’t really consider that to be the crux of the preterist position on Revelation anyway.. Sorry for not re-quoting earlier and making it more clear. I don’t think I’ve disagreed with you about other Scripture references, which would explain why I haven’t addressed them.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:56:46 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:56:46 -0000

Whoa, what’s that supposed to mean? You have consistently throughout this site asserted your beliefs as true just like everyone else, and I don’t get to explain mine? Either I’m right, or I’m not, and if I’m right that Christ intended for there to be ONE Church preserved in Truth by HIS gift of the Holy Spirit, then that has consequences. Note also that the concept of CATHOLIC in the Church is much more expansive than you seem to be applying, and I’ve talked about it in various places throughout this site. You’re part of the catholic Church, though not in full communion with it. So is the unborn child, and so is the non-Christian lover of God, for they have come to the Father through the Word as He has been revealed to them in their lives.

Thank you for validating my previous statement…I will not attempt to dismantle your denomination with Scripture, however, it can be done as with all denominations of men.

My communion is in CHRIST, not a denomination of Christianity. CHRIST is the CHURCH, not Catholicism.

My Preterist beliefs are supported in Scripture, and regarding end time prophecy, it is not relevant to Salvation – however believing that CHRIST IS THE TRUTH, THE WAY, & THE LIFE and that everyone comes to the Heavenly FATHER, THROUGH HIM is the ONLY ABSOLUTE – and that any other gospel apart from it, is blasphemy.

And yet again, you bring up 1 Corinthians…I guess you are going to fixate upon the one verse out of the many that you have not found a glimpse of fallibility with? Again, my belief of the interpretation of Scripture does not change my treatment of others – I do not state that Preterism is the one true religion, because it isn’t relevant to Salvation, but is relevant as to what people believe must occur in this modern age, instead of focusing on the LOVE OF CHRIST toward their fellow man.

When you admit that it isn’t legislation that will end abortion, then you will have found the answer to abortion on demand. It is a greater understanding that I am asking you to seek out within your own heart, not what you feel you must fight against.

Good Night, Arandur. As you have stated previously, you do not have the ability to access Scripture as it pertains to your issues and Biblical knowledge, as you have stated with my presenting of Scripture and original language definitions, not a copy and pasting of someone else’s prefabbed outlines. I hope you will spend more time in the Word, and not in religious doctrines and creeds.

Our Faith is in GOD, Through CHRIST, and perpetuated with the HOLY SPIRIT, not religion or one specific denomination.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:37:22 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:37:22 -0000

“NO MAN is PERFECTLY ANYTHING” Agreed. Touche on the “splitting of atoms” and 46 chromosomes; we’re even. :)”

They are not one in the same. No man, according to Scripture is to reference themselves as being perfect in any manner. It’s addressing pride, not semantics. Your critical remark about 46 chromosomes was an attempt (with semantics) to chide me, on a point that actually supports your argument on behalf of life at conception.

“I have made very few exclusionary statements about interpretation of Scriptures, and I have explained both the reasons for the short quotations, and the meaning of those few that we appeared in disagreement about in their own context (the 1 Corinthians Ch2 one comes to mind). I don’t see how I’m taking “one aspect of GOD in Scripture and applying it to fit specifically [my] agenda as if [I] understand the Will of GOD completely;” especially not any more than you are. I don’t think either of us is, because we’re talking about our understandings of Scripture here.”

Your bringing up 1 Corinthians yet again? Why? Because I conceded that most Biblical scholars interpret as you do? How many times are you going to bring up this one perceived error to exercise a point of your justification, especially in a completely unrelated topic? And you wonder why you assume I am taking this personally? Maybe it is because you are going to lengths such as this, to bring up one area of which you believe you have found a flaw, but have yet to address the numerous other Scripture references that substantiate my belief adequately.

Abortion replied by Arandur @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:19:28 -0000

Arandur — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:19:28 -0000

“When someone makes repetitive statements that they believe that their religion is sovereign. That their religion is the one true religion, and that all others are self-fashioned or styled and out of the scope of God and Christendom – I think that cause for some personal concern.”

Most of our discussion hasn’t been about Scripture, and we’ve talked about all of the context issues; you believed what I believed about most of those passages, with the only exception I can remember being 1 Corinthians Ch2, where I looked up the context after your accusation and found it to mean something different than what you were representing.

“I am very passionate about the souls that are in existence, who are beyond the age of accountability and in desperate need of GOD, and the Love of Christ, NOT RELIGIOUS LEGALISM.” And I am passionate about ALL people, body and soul, including children unborn and before the age of reason. I’ve also never been talking about “religious” legalism, just secular law in this country founded on principles that should in themselves prohibit abortion.

“I am in favor of ending the argument as well…You accuse me of doing the very things that you are doing to me in this discussion.” I’m sorry you think that. I’ve acknowledged your points explicitly, and I’ve tried to explain what I mean when I say “seem” (that it’s not meant to judge or assume, but to ask for clarification, whereas I could quote you if you wanted the many places that you ignore me and assume things and refute, not asking for clarification).

I have taken this whole argument to be about whether or not it is right and good to work towards making abortion illegal in this society. I tried to define our argument in just these terms early in this thread, and if you thought it was about anything different, I don’t understand why. In the context of the point of the argument, I readily accepted that you don’t condone abortion, and I rejected your notion that the Pro-Life movement (myself included) “judges” and “condemns.”

I’ve also not said that children are a “curse.” Children are a gift and are human persons with as much value as the parents; the law should recognize this as part of its mission to “protect life,” and people should not kill other people to avoid having to take some responsibility.

If you want to leave it here, fine. Where we disagree is simply that secular law should be against abortion as well, and that Christians have a duty to work towards this as responsible citizens in a representative democracy.

Abortion replied by PreteristView @ Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:56:43 -0000

PreteristView — Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:56:43 -0000

I am in favor of ending the argument as well…You accuse me of doing the very things that you are doing to me in this discussion.

How many times do I have to state that I do not condone abortion, and only find fault with yours and other’s inability not to judge, condemn and sentence people whether it be through out of context Scripture references, or highlighted scientific/medical findings outside of the qualifying normative statistics, or saying that a child is consequence of another moral sin. Children are children, not the consequence of sin. Conception is the outcome of fertilization, it is not a curse upon women who lack chastity or a sentence to be carried out to birth.

If you really want to persuade people not to have an abortion, not to support the legalism of it – how about emphasizing how much GOD loves us beyond the point of conception?

Jesus Christ, and HIS LOVE is the ANSWER, not your feeble attempts to change secular law…And to fight abortion, when ONCE AGAIN, ABORTION IS A SYMPTOM OF A MUCH GREATER ISSUE.

You can’t expect to put a band-aid on a bleeding gushing wound. It is multiple steps to bring healing, not some activism to ease the consciousness of self-righteous judgment.

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